Putin Declared a Secret War Against America According to This Expert

In this video ChaptersTranscript Search transcriptChapter 1: The nature of Russian threats0:000 secondsGood. Eric, thanks for having me on your on your show on game theory. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about things I’m passionate about, Russian intelligence,0:077 secondsespionage, and how they are waging a secret war against us in the West, and it needs more attention. So glad glad to do this with you. Thank you. 10 years0:1515 secondsago in November or so, Admiral Mike Rogers of the National Security Agency came out at the Wall Street Journal CEO Summit and he said, “Hold up. The0:2424 secondselection we just had, the Russians attacked it.” And this ended up becoming national discussion in a way [clears throat] it never had.

But the0:3333 secondsyear following that we we had one of the most important public counter intelligence investigations ever which0:4040 secondswas run by the former FBI director Robert S. Mueller III. That was 7 years ago now. You have just written a new0:4848 secondsbook. Can you tell us what that book is and why is it important to have a book about how Russian intelligence works?0:5555 secondsYou know, I had uh 28 years in the intelligence community. The reason why I wrote the book, in short, it’s not a memoir. It’s not a uh a lot of espionage1:031 minute, 3 secondsbooks are about one case like the Robert Hansen spy case, the spy from FBI, or they’re about a famous Russian spy who helped us.

My book is 10 chapters on1:111 minute, 11 secondstheir trade craft, on how they’re attacking the West, how they’re attacking the United States and our allies. You know, you just mentioned election attacks, what they call active measures, and we can talk in depth about1:201 minute, 20 secondsthat. It’s really important, I think, what’s been lost since 2016 since those attacks that were documented, researched, investigated heavily in a1:281 minute, 28 secondsbipartisan way. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence that Marco Rubio was a member of and put out a report on the 2016 election that the Russians unquestionably meddled and1:371 minute, 37 secondstried to uh influence our election. The conclusion, the most important one, was not for or against any single candidate that was lost.

You know, that ended up1:441 minute, 44 secondsgetting politicized, but they were trying to meddle in our entire election and undermine our democracy. That’s the key point. The DNI report, the DNI1:511 minute, 51 secondsinvestigation also from 2016 substantiated the same things. Those were not the only one. Facebook did an investigation. Facebook found that1:591 minute, 59 secondsRussian social media trolls were on Facebook getting millions and millions of impressions and likes and and whatnot. And Facebook reported very2:072 minutes, 7 secondscomprehensively that they were arguing, the social media trolls from Russia were arguing different sides of the same issues. What does that tell you? They want Americans to fight each other.2:162 minutes, 16 secondsTheir their goal is disunityity.

Their goal is animosity. in America. And unfortunately, they’ve continued that.2:212 minutes, 21 secondsThey continuing it in 2020. They’re not just doing it in America. They just did it in Hungary trying to influence the election there. They did it in Brexit in 2016. And so, that’s just one chapter in2:302 minutes, 30 secondsmy book. That’s one piece of tradecraftraft they use, Eric. But I think it’s one of the most important ones we need to pay attention to.Chapter 2: Intelligence tradecraft2:352 minutes, 35 secondsYou said that this is that this was not a partisan issue that that the Russians go at both sides. They go at all sides.2:422 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. In fact, there was there’s parts of the the reports that that have really been lost over the years.

nobody’s paying attention to, you know, and I my book’s apolitical. You know that, Eric.2:502 minutes, 50 secondsI appreciate you being an astute reader of it. I don’t mention I think I mentioned President Biden once and President Trump once just in terms of their time periods. Don’t take a2:582 minutes, 58 secondspolitical stance one way or the other for or against any of the candidates.3:013 minutes, 1 secondThe important thing to to realize is that the Russians themselves didn’t know who who was going to win and they weren’t sure of how it was all going to play out. There’s one part of the uh the3:093 minutes, 9 secondsDNI report I believe was in particular that mentioned some reporting that they included that you know the Russian intelligence services all three of them SVR the foreign service the FSB the3:183 minutes, 18 secondsinternal service and the GRU the military intelligence services were all competing with each other in terms of cyber hacks cyber espionage operations3:273 minutes, 27 secondsattacking the campaigns in 2016 and they were doing it against both Trump and and uh and Clinton campaigns.

In fact, the3:353 minutes, 35 secondsthe uh Fancy Bear group, I believe it was, that um hacked the Democratic server, one of the reasons that they were found out is because the FBI, when3:423 minutes, 42 secondsthey were looking at an FSB group trying to hack the server, they came across, oh, here’s a GRU group. It looks like they already did hack the Democratic server.3:503 minutes, 50 secondsSo, so there was a lot of attacks going on. There was a lot of efforts. Uh but the overall goal, I’m convinced the 28 years of my experience in the intelligence agencies was to undermine3:593 minutes, 59 secondsour very democracy. That’s what they’ve always been doing. By the way, Eric, this is not a new technique.

Active measures act in Russian, also called4:074 minutes, 7 secondsmeasures of support. They use the term measures of support. Now, I think they’re also keen to understand the politicization of the term. Russians4:144 minutes, 14 secondsdon’t want people to focus on it being them trying to influence. Yeah. Don’t want them. So, now they call them measures of support. Well, what are they supporting? They’re supporting Russia’s malign policies.4:234 minutes, 23 secondsRight.4:244 minutes, 24 secondsSo, um these go back deep into the cold war. Before the cold war even uh the boleviks were always understood information operations and fundamentally these are information operations.4:334 minutes, 33 secondsYou said the Russians don’t want us to know about this.

Very briefly, I myself was sanctioned by them apparently just for my writing in 2022 because I wrote,4:434 minutes, 43 secondshey, for many years I was out there on social media and elsewhere giving speeches and saying, hey, Russian intelligence does stuff and it matters,4:514 minutes, 51 secondswhich of course was was was being um echoed with with these committees and these these special counsel things. Um,4:594 minutes, 59 secondsyour book is all about the, you know, the the the title is Trade Craft Tactics and Dirty Tricks, Russian Intelligence5:085 minutes, 8 secondsand Putin’s Secret War. And I’ve actually read it cover to cover and you5:145 minutes, 14 secondsget into the the nitty-gritty of how they work and that this is a whole of5:225 minutes, 22 secondsgovernment approach for them, that they have been doing this for decades, that they are still doing it.

And so you’ve5:285 minutes, 28 secondscome forth and and I I knew broad strokes about how they did things that they want chaos that they are not in5:365 minutes, 36 secondsfavor of one political party but your book gets way more into detail. Um just for your credentials you you were posted5:455 minutes, 45 secondsover there right? Yeah. So CIA doesn’t like us to talk about where uh we served specifically. Yeah. So broadly speaking5:525 minutes, 52 secondsI did 12 years overseas. I served in the former Soviet Union in Central Eurasia.5:575 minutes, 57 secondsum had a tour in the in the uh Oceanana region, meaning the somewhere in the Pacific area, but 12 years overseas.6:056 minutes, 5 secondsAlso served in a war zone.

I was the chief of base for CIA in a war zone, but in terms of particular dates and places and times, CIA doesn’t like us talk about that, but but 12 years overseas,6:146 minutes, 14 seconds28 years in the intelligence community, and uh Russia was a huge focus of my career. I was also a it’s known as a denied area expert, and CIA let me6:226 minutes, 22 secondsmention that in my biography. It’s mentioned in the book a couple times that I I was a specialist in countering our adversaries from China, Russia,6:306 minutes, 30 secondsIran, North Korea, places where it’s really difficult to work. Um the term comes from the 1980s. There was a famous leader in CIA named Burton Gerber6:396 minutes, 39 secondsfocused on that work a lot.

What B what Gerber said uh he’s a real hero to CIA in our country. He was a former chief station Moscow passed away sadly last6:486 minutes, 48 secondsyear. And uh Mr. Gerber said for CIA we can’t have any denied areas. We need to be able to operate everywhere in the world for the good of the American6:566 minutes, 56 secondspeople and to carry out our national security missions. So I [snorts] was a denied area expert as well. Spent a lot of time uh studying Russian trade craft.7:037 minutes, 3 secondsSo when I decided to write a book, Eric, I knew that my book would be focused on tradecraftraft. Again, it’s not a memoir. It’s not criticizing CIA nor the7:117 minutes, 11 secondsintelligence community.

I don’t have any gr I don’t have any grudges. It’s not an expose or it is but only against our adversaries. It’s an expose in fact.7:187 minutes, 18 seconds[laughter] Yeah. an expose in fact of their trade craft of their weaknesses of their failings and begrudgingly begrudgingly at times Eric there’s a few7:267 minutes, 26 secondsbackhand compliments I have to give the Russians of the things they do well active measures is one thing they do well another one by the way is compartmentation when they want to run a7:357 minutes, 35 secondscase penetrating a foreign government as in the case of Robert Hansen the spy I touch on in my book the spy for FBI you know they did it remarkably well for 207:447 minutes, 44 secondsyears 20 years three different Russian services he first worked for the GR are you?

Then he quit, confessed to his priest7:527 minutes, 52 secondsand his wife and the priest said, you know, I absolve you and I’m not going to tell anyone. Which I think was a wrong call of the priest. But uh he went on toChapter 3: The ghost stories case8:018 minutes, 1 secondcontinue spying. Then he revolunteered to the KGB and then he worked for the SVR, the successor foreign intelligence service of the KGB once Russia was an8:098 minutes, 9 secondsindependent state. They compartmented him really well. Counter intelligence, right?8:148 minutes, 14 secondsWell, he was a senior officer. He certainly wasn’t head, but he was a senior officer in Russia. uh in uh in counter intelligence uh with FBI.

He had8:218 minutes, 21 secondsa lot of connections. He knew a lot about double agents. There’s some really good books out there. The Bureau of the Mole is one of the books that I cite in my book about the Hansen case. I talk about my book’s new and unique though.8:328 minutes, 32 secondsAnd that I talk about tradecraftraft. So in the Hansen case, I talk about specific tradecraftraft the Russians used, things they thought about using.8:388 minutes, 38 secondsAnd so, uh, people that love stories about spies on the streets, how they do dead drops, uh, how Hansen in fact did8:468 minutes, 46 secondsdead drops with the Russians, uh, illegals, Russians, Neil Gallali or Russian intelligence officers, like the Americans TV show.

We can talk about that some more.8:558 minutes, 55 secondsFolks that have tuned in or watching this later on YouTube, you’ll you’ll love the book. Hope you’ll consider picking it up.8:598 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. I mean, you you get into uh the the trade craft in a depth I’ve I’ve never seen. And it’s [snorts] that9:079 minutes, 7 secondsyou’re you’re right about the the bibliography out there. There’s a lot of books that will detour into the sort of9:159 minutes, 15 secondsthe splashy cinematic stories of spies doing this and that. You you focus on this as a professional that they’re9:239 minutes, 23 secondsprofessionals. You know, because you’re a professional and you give great lists and categories of exactly how these guys9:309 minutes, 30 secondsare doing it.

And I’m glad you brought up uh the illegals. They’ve they’ve captured Americans. imaginations. It’s very interesting that that uh the Fox9:399 minutes, 39 secondsNews or the Fox television people had a television series ready to go so quickly after the arrest of the Russian illegals9:479 minutes, 47 secondsuh in 2010. And I was uh delighted and surprised to to when I started reading9:559 minutes, 55 secondsyour book to see how involved you were with a group that a lot of viewers out there might know as sort of the AnnaChapter 4: Putin’s espionage strategy10:0210 minutes, 2 secondsChapman gang of spies that because she was the pretty red head they put on on television. She was part of a group of10:0910 minutes, 9 secondsabout a dozen spies that were wrapped up on the same day in June of 2010 and then10:1710 minutes, 17 secondsdeported back to Moscow after receiving I think 18 USC 951 charges and they did10:2510 minutes, 25 secondsan exchange in I think Vienna.

Um sort of classic. Um, surely they are not the10:3210 minutes, 32 secondsonly illegals that are in the United States and what they were up to was very important. So it you talk about this in10:4110 minutes, 41 secondsyour your book. Why do you think it’s important for Americans to know that some of our neighbors might not be Americans? Yeah. So the the Russians uh10:4910 minutes, 49 secondsfirst I want to touch on some very very well said Eric and you commented at the beginning about um uh you know you commented a little bit on on something I wanted to mention about joint joint work10:5810 minutes, 58 secondswithin our government. You know I um just had a big launch event for the book in New York and we did another one at the spy museum.

Really honored that uh a11:0611 minutes, 6 secondslot of my CIA colleagues came out to support me in the book but I also had a lot of FBI colleagues and others from other agencies. In fact, at both events,11:1311 minutes, 13 secondsI had FBI personnel that worked the ghost stories case that I got to know working that case with them. Listen, this was a great Team America operation.11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsAnd one of the highest compliments I got for my book was uh a writer named Ed Lucas, who is a senior economist, editor11:2711 minutes, 27 secondswith The Economist, and now writes for a couple of uh media in the UK. He said, “Hey, you know what’s unique about Sean’s book? It’s modestly written.” I I11:3611 minutes, 36 secondsknow that’s ironic while we’re talking about the book now.

Um but it is modestly written. I don’t take credit.11:4111 minutes, 41 secondsI’m not self arandizing. I had a very small role in the ghost stories case.11:4511 minutes, 45 secondsTiny little piece of a giant cog of operation. Very proud for the time that I spent working the case. Some of the things I did CIA let me relate relate11:5211 minutes, 52 secondsone story of something that I did and I’ll let readers get to that. But it has to do with what we call the 11th illegal. That was Christopher Mezos. he11:5911 minutes, 59 secondswas with a traveling illegal would come in via Canada to the United States and he would help service the main 10 illegals12:0712 minutes, 7 secondswhich were four pairs of married illegals and then two other what are called special agent illegals.

I’m using a lot of terminology I’m going to get12:1412 minutes, 14 secondsback to and then the 12th illegal was wrapped up separately and and deported separately. His name was Karetikov and he was working at Microsoft. So why are12:2212 minutes, 22 secondsthese illegals Yeah. Why are these illegals important? And what’s significant about them is that they’re not operating uh with the cover of12:3012 minutes, 30 secondsdiplomatic community for starters. Uh they’re also not um except for the special aging illegals. Anna Chapman was12:3712 minutes, 37 secondsamong them. These other illegals were mostly what we call dead double illegals. They picked up identities of people that had died in infancy and they12:4512 minutes, 45 secondsinfiltrated via Canada and then picked up these identities.

Now, why is it important a dead double? Well, if somebody died in their infancy, a lot of times before records were12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsdigitized in the United States, Eric, they would go and get a duplicate birth certificate. And once you have that, you got the golden golden gem. You can13:0213 minutes, 2 secondsget anything with a birth certificate, right? You can go get your passport. You So, the Russians have done this for generations and they’re still doing it now. Giant case wrapped up in Brazil13:1113 minutes, 11 secondslast year with the Russian the SVR using documents there in Brazil. So um three three main types of illegals featured in13:2013 minutes, 20 secondsthat ghost stories case showing the three main types of illegals the SVR are using.

Now to your point why Americans need to read about it. I focus on it in13:2813 minutes, 28 secondsthe book. It was an outstanding success for uh for FBI CIA and our intelligence community. We knew, those of us that had13:3513 minutes, 35 secondsworked on the case and were knew the intimate intimate knowledge of the case and how it unfolded knew that as soon as we deported those illegals back to13:4213 minutes, 42 secondsRussia, we knew literally the very next day Putin was going to say to his services, “Double down. I want twice as many illegals now in the United States,13:5013 minutes, 50 secondsdeployed as fast as we can.” That’s how committed they are to espionage. That’s how committed they are what they view as a mortal a mortal uh13:5913 minutes, 59 secondsuh struggle with the West, with democracy.

Um, and Putin means to win and he’s going to keep deploying illegals. He’s going to keep deploying14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsespionage operations. What do you see unfolding now in Europe, Eric? And we can talk about these other areas that I touch on in my book. Sabotage, assassinations, wet work.14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsWet work.14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsUh, you know, this is Putin’s secret war. This is the subtitle of my book.14:2114 minutes, 21 secondsAnd he’s committed to it. He was raised as a checkist. He was raised in the KGB quite literally. He relates the story when he was a young boy. He was reading14:2814 minutes, 28 secondsnovels about the KGB by a famous Russian writer called Yolan Simonov.

And so this is part of every every every ounce of14:3614 minutes, 36 secondsPutin’s being is tied up in intelligence culture and the mortal war with the West. What do they call us? As I highlight in the book, Eric, they call14:4414 minutes, 44 secondsus the main enemy, right? We’re the main adversary, the main enemy.14:4714 minutes, 47 secondsExactly. So now your some of your story starts in the 1990s in the book that I read. Um, and you know, I I startedChapter 5: The legacy of Chekist culture14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsworking in DC in in the 90s as well. And um, I remember meeting people in the intelligence community, and this was a15:0315 minutes, 3 secondsperiod of time where we were being told uh through world events, not just narrative, that, you know, the Berlin Wall came down, the Soviets call it15:1015 minutes, 10 secondscalled it quits, and the people that were Russians in town in Washington were starting to be deployed out into other15:1815 minutes, 18 secondsareas.

They might be retiring, but I remember meeting a lot of guys back then who said it is not over.15:2815 minutes, 28 secondsThat that was your is it your sense that the cold war didn’t end in the ’90s as well?15:3315 minutes, 33 secondsIt didn’t. So, uh Mike Sulic was one of our best DDOS’s ever, deputy director operations was very honored. He he uh he he honored me in the book by writing the15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsforward to the book and Mike Sullig touches on that. He says, you know, we Cold War veterans, especially his generation, Mr. Sulik served as a chief15:4915 minutes, 49 secondsstation in Moscow. He rose to be the chief of the clandestine service for CIA, deputy director of operations and head of the clandestine service.

And he15:5715 minutes, 57 secondspoints out in his forward, he said, you know, we cold warriors, we knew, we knew it wasn’t over because this guy Putin in charge, you know, former member of the16:0516 minutes, 5 secondsKGB, served in both the second chief director and the first chief director.16:0916 minutes, 9 secondsHe served in Dresden as the Cold War was coming to an end. Putin’s famous for saying, Eric, that he believed it was the greatest geopolitical disaster of16:1816 minutes, 18 secondsthe 20th century was the collapse of the Soviet Union. Think about that term for a minute. You know, I’m an historian.16:2316 minutes, 23 secondsYou know, I got a degree in history from University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

And uh let’s see, we have World War I cost millions and millions of16:3016 minutes, 30 secondspeople. The Great War. It was superseded, unfortunately, by the suffering in World War II. You know, upwards of 40 to 50 million people16:3816 minutes, 38 secondsacross Europe. Nobody knows all the all the numbers and and around the world, excuse me.16:4216 minutes, 42 secondsAnd then the Soviet people, as Putin is well aware, the Soviet people themselves lost 25 million of their people in what they call the Great Patriotic War. And16:5016 minutes, 50 secondsyet for Putin, the greatest disaster of the 20th century was what? The dissolution of the USSR. because that16:5716 minutes, 57 secondsled to the collapse temporarily of his KGB, of his wanted KGB.

And the elite of society that they were, not in terms of17:0517 minutes, 5 secondstheir smarts, in terms of their production, because after all, the Soviet Union collapsed. The KGB couldn’t sustain it. Even with all of their attempts to sustain it, because of their17:1317 minutes, 13 secondscorruption, they were the elite in one way only, the being corrupt. And Putin knows that. And they’re superseded now only by the corruption of the FSB and17:2117 minutes, 21 secondsthe other services in Russia, Eric. And so for Putin to make that statement, and he’s made it boldly, and he continues to make that statement, it shows how how17:2917 minutes, 29 secondslittle respect he has ultimately for the Russian people and the former Soviet people, because for him, it’s all about the security elite ruling the country with a chokeold as the FSB does today.17:3917 minutes, 39 secondsAbsolutely no disscent allowed, no democratic process whatsoever in Russia, no freedom of the press.

That’s what Putin’s in it for. And that’s what the17:4717 minutes, 47 secondssea of key that that rule around him, that’s what they’re in it for. and and he just renamed the FSB Academy back to the Felix Gjinski.17:5617 minutes, 56 secondsOh yeah.17:5617 minutes, 56 secondsAcademy. Could you tell us what that means as a signal about his intent?18:0018 minutesSo let me tell a story from the book uh and and the culture of the chist. So Czecha in Russian is the chair of Chinese kit. It’s a much longer phrase,18:0818 minutes, 8 secondsbut the extraordinary committee for the extraordinary committee for the defense of the revolution set up by Felix Gerjinsky was one of the Bolshevc18:1518 minutes, 15 secondsrevolutionaries.

And Gerjinski very much believed, Eric, like Lenin told him, can’t have revolution without terror.18:2318 minutes, 23 secondsThat was Lenin’s phrase, got to have terror for our revolution so that people will live in fear. That was what that’s what will ensure the success of the18:3018 minutes, 30 secondsBolevik revolution. And Lennon had another phrase, by the way, for anybody that still believes hardcore communists out there. You know, another thing that Lenin said is we need to take advantage18:3918 minutes, 39 secondsof useful idiots, people that believe in communism and as an ideal. Because Lenin ultimately really didn’t deep down he just wanted to set up a new system. He18:4818 minutes, 48 secondswanted to shake up the world and then he very quickly decided there would be a ruling elite in charge.

It was Lenin, Trosky, Stalin, others like Bukarin who18:5718 minutes, 57 secondsbukatin may have been a more idealistic among them. But what they quickly decided on was just like the Orwellian you know animal farm which I hear is19:0419 minutes, 4 secondsbeing re remade in another movie now. Um it was going to be a ruling elite deciding for everybody else. You know everybody is equal but some are more19:1119 minutes, 11 secondsequal than others. We’re more equal in the KGB. We deserve more resources. We deserve to live better. We deserve corruption. And so corruption is part19:2019 minutes, 20 secondsand parcel of everything about the Russian intelligence services. Um, Eric, and you can’t understand the Russian state without understanding them and how19:2719 minutes, 27 secondsthey dominate society.

And there’s a lot of that in my book. You know, all 10 chapters on different aspects of espionage. I talk about the corruption.19:3419 minutes, 34 secondsLet me give one quick statement about Gjinski, though. Sure.19:3719 minutes, 37 secondsI can never understand. Here’s a story about Russian intelligence officers. I could never understand why do they admire the man so much. After all, he killed a lot of their own people, too.19:4619 minutes, 46 secondsThe purges that Gjinsky started in the in the civil war, sure, carried out later by the successors of the Czecha, the OGPU, the NKVD, and then19:5419 minutes, 54 secondsfinally the KGB, they killed millions of their own people. So why would anybody reverins or even the Czecha?

I don’t understand. I asked the Russian20:0220 minutes, 2 secondsintelligence officer and 20 December every year, they celebrate Jinski’s day as Czechus Day. So [snorts] one of the old tricks during the cold war is if you wanted to know who intelligence officers20:1120 minutes, 11 secondswere just find out who’s drunk on 20 December. Well that tradition continues.20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsI had a FSB officer once we have liazison with them so we’ll deal with them in official standings. I had FSB officer on on or near 20 December said20:2420 minutes, 24 secondsto me Sean I’d like you to drink with me will you? And I said well you know I find it disgusting but I just want to clarify. Are you going to propose the20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsnext to be to Hinrich Himmler the head of the SS in Germany?

And yeah, of course, his reaction too was very upset.20:3920 minutes, 39 secondsHow dare you make that analogy? I said, “How dare you not make that analogy? How dare you forget the suffering of your own people, the Russian people and the20:4720 minutes, 47 secondsSoviet people?” Needless to say, we didn’t have the toast, Eric. But that’s my point. You know, the the Russian security services, they conveniently20:5420 minutes, 54 secondsforget the the crimes committed by those services. They conveniently forget their own history and they want to celebrate Jerinsky. So, it is telling when Putin21:0221 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. wants to rename the academy when he puts back up statues to people like Gerjinski when the FSB today is still21:0921 minutes, 9 secondsheadquartered in Ljubanka formerly Lubiana prison by the way we don’t know how many tens of thousands or more possibly hundreds of thousands21:1821 minutes, 18 secondsespecially in the early decades after the Bolshevc revolution were shot in the back of the head in that building and another one named Lefort in Russia that21:2621 minutes, 26 secondsthe FSB still runs today.

The very fact that instead of turning it into a museum like the Lithuanians did in Vnius, the21:3321 minutes, 33 secondsKGB museum, and they have Yeah. the headquarters of the old KGB is now a museum to to suffering that that happened there. You walk around the21:4221 minutes, 42 secondsbuilding and they have the names of the victims on the granite. What a remarkable and great thing the Lithuanians did. So their people will never forget the suffering of those who21:5021 minutes, 50 secondsdied in that building. In Russia, not a single monument anywhere around the Lubiana to the suffering that took place there to the tens of thousands or more21:5921 minutes, 59 secondsthat were shot to death in that building or were ordered to exile in Siberia or ordered execution in the goolog camps.Chapter 6: Corruption and state power22:0622 minutes, 6 secondsSo yeah, um that’s Eric.

That’s his legacy. That’s what he left behind.22:1122 minutes, 11 secondsAnd they just renamed their service academy for the government after the guy like last month.22:1922 minutes, 19 secondsYeah. Who did all that? who started all that and that tradition of terror, terror against their people. Their words, not mine, but I talk about it a22:2722 minutes, 27 secondslot in the book. We have to understand, Eric, we got to understand the checkist culture if we want to understand Putin today because he’s proud of it. If he was sitting right here and joined us suddenly in this interview, he’d say,22:3522 minutes, 35 seconds”You’re damn straight. I’m a checkist and I’m proud of it.” And that’s what it’s hard for Americans to understand and reconcile.

You know, they’re proud22:4222 minutes, 42 secondsof their the the terrorist history of the Czecha and the NKVD and the KGB and the FSB today. This is why they’re murdering opposition figures like22:5122 minutes, 51 secondsNavali. Can’t have a Russian heroically pointing out that a ruling elite is building literally billion-dollar palaces down in the Black Sea. While23:0023 minutessomething like I just heard a statistic, I think in the Economist two weeks ago, you know, Eric, 1,200 elementary schools in Russia don’t have indoor plumbing for23:0823 minutes, 8 secondstheir kids to use indoor toilets. 1,200 elementary schools in Russia, the kids still have to go out outside to use23:1623 minutes, 16 secondsoutouses.

And yet the ruling elite, the seal of the key as as Putin calls them, the strong men in charge of the security organs, their term too, they call them23:2423 minutes, 24 secondsthe organs, not cabinets, not departments. These are the organs of power in Russia, the FSB, the SVR, the GRU, the defense ministry. You know,23:3223 minutes, 32 secondsthose leaders are living in literally multiund million dollar palaces or billion dollar palaces built around the Black Sea and around Moscow. And you23:4023 minutes, 40 secondshave simple Russians suffering, especially outside of Moscow in what they call the pavio. Russians serve the provinces they use from the Zarist time they still call them the provinces.

Why?23:4923 minutes, 49 secondsBecause I just gave you a very sad statistic. You know over a thousand elementary schools don’t have indoor toilets.23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsThat’s why Putin can’t allow democracy, Eric. That’s why it’s so fundamental his struggle against the West and against our democracies because if he had free24:0424 minutes, 4 secondsand a fair elections in Russia, he has no chance of staying in power. It’s by the way the same truth of Xihinping’s China. But I was a Russia expert. I try24:1224 minutes, 12 secondsto focus on do my part on Russia and there’s you know there’s no question I mean this is all you know this is24:2024 minutes, 20 secondselucidating a lot of our issues here because for a while here you know we one we’ve been told that that Russia wasn’t24:2824 minutes, 28 secondsa threat anymore really and then people was like well it’s okay to have Russian investment in this country you know they’re they’re just uh businessmen but24:3724 minutes, 37 secondswe now know that the businessmen are really representatives of their state in in different ways.

And now we know that24:4624 minutes, 46 secondsthey have been attacking our elections in this very intense manner. And and you are shining a light on who these people24:5324 minutes, 53 secondsactually are, which you know are essentially, you know, they’re these are the mafia and25:0125 minutes, 1 secondthey are there. That’s a very good point. I say in my book, they resemble more of a mafia band of thugs than they do uh a professional government trying25:0925 minutes, 9 secondsto run for the good of its people. And remember that in the case of the security services in Russia, Eric, these are giant corporations. You know, the25:1625 minutes, 16 secondsUnited States, like it or not, uh every four years we have elections.

In other words, if you like who’s coming to power25:2325 minutes, 23 secondsor not, we change administrations and we change leaders of the FBI and CIA. They rotate out. No such thing in Russia.25:3125 minutes, 31 secondsthese ruling siliki these veterans of the KGB that came in with Putin 25 years ago came with him when he was deputy mayor of St. Petersburg when he was head of25:3925 minutes, 39 secondsthe FSB. Many of them worked under him in the FSB. Matrushev, Ivanov, these guys have been around a long time. Sin25:4725 minutes, 47 secondswho heads Rasnfv, the Russian oil conglomerate now. They literally control every aspect of Russian society and its25:5325 minutes, 53 secondsand it and its uh and its wealth and they just kind of circle around.

He rotates them in that way. By the way, Putin is very Stalinist. That’s what26:0126 minutes, 1 secondStalin did. kept his uh kept his there was a book I think by um I forgot who the author was maybe Monty forest Stalin’s lieutenant really good book how26:1026 minutes, 10 secondsStalin always rotated the same kind of men among him in different positions making sure he was in power and he was26:1726 minutes, 17 secondscalling the shots Putin does a similar thing keeps those same KGB veterans those cilivik he calls him which again means strongman keeps them very close26:2526 minutes, 25 secondsand rotates them around him their loyalty is singularly to him everything they have they’re completely beholden it to him.

So it makes them very loyal.26:3526 minutes, 35 secondsEric, now let me let me bring it back to the United States. Why should Americans care about this? I’m going to relate a story that I tell in the book and then we can take some questions. Eric, I knowChapter 7: Internal and external control26:4326 minutes, 43 secondsyou have some questions to take, but there was a Russian intelligence officer early in my career who was helping us, betraying his country, helping us. And I said to him, “Hey, we have the global26:5126 minutes, 51 secondswar on terror.” Now, Bush and Putin met and they uh they’ve agreed to cooperate, right? So I was still kind of young in26:5926 minutes, 59 secondsmy career, Eric, but I was still a trained intelligence officer.

I asked him, I said, “So, are you seeing in your services you all we’re going to cooperate and work27:0627 minutes, 6 secondsagainst al-Qaeda, right?” And he laughed at me. This Russian intelligence officer, he laughed at me. He said, “Young man,” said, “Let me tell you something. You27:1527 minutes, 15 secondswere the main enemy all through the Cold War. You still are the main enemy now.27:1827 minutes, 18 secondsYou will always be the main enemy of Russia and our security services. Under Putin, you all come first. Forget about terrorism. Forget about Chetchin war,27:2727 minutes, 27 secondsany threats inside Russia. United States is going to come first and NATO and all of your allies will come second, third and fourth.

He explained to me and I27:3627 minutes, 36 secondsunderstood throughout my career then for them for the Russian intelligence services for Putin for Leviki this is an existential threat democracies to them.27:4527 minutes, 45 secondsThis is a zero sum game Eric. They’re never going to cooperate and work for us for the greater good of humanity and for the greater good of even business or the27:5427 minutes, 54 secondseconomy. Forget it. Okay. This is about undermining the United States as a system, about undermining the West, about destroying NATO, which by the way,28:0128 minutes, 1 secondI I believe in strongly as you know from my book. Um, so with that, thanks for the chance to talk. Let’s take some questions, I guess.

Right. I know you28:0928 minutes, 9 secondshave some questions from people that have tuned in. Let’s see what they have to Yeah, we’ve got one here. What’s Putin’s approval rating?28:1528 minutes, 15 secondsYeah, good question. And it’s hard to know because there’s no democracy. But some of the polls that are referred to in the west, one polling agency that still people pay attention to is Lvada.28:2528 minutes, 25 secondsUm what do I believe? What Lavvada says and what what what I believe fundamentally is Putin has very strong28:3228 minutes, 32 secondsapproval ratings. You have to remember this is an analogy to Adolf Hitler in 1944. If you did polling in Germany, you28:4028 minutes, 40 secondswould have found overwhelming support of a society at war with an with an overwhelming propaganda presence.

The28:4828 minutes, 48 secondsthe security services of today carry out a propaganda machine in Russia that far supersedes and and and and is much more28:5528 minutes, 55 secondsfarreaching than what Gerbles had for Germany. People might say, “Oh, Sean, that’s a really big stable. Let me back it up.” They have complete control of29:0429 minutes, 4 secondsall internet service providers in Russia by law. And they’ve had that for 20 years. By the way, the FSB can turn them off and on however they want. They have29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsFFSB of officers embedded to all the ISBs across the country. By law in Russia now and since 2022, it’s against the law to even call the Ukraine war a29:2029 minutes, 20 secondswar.

There is no democratic press. There is no freedom of the press. The young intelligent Jensenia who were scared to for right good reason of fighting29:2829 minutes, 28 secondsUkraine left by the hundreds of thousands. Some of the brightest young minds of Russia left. Those that were left were killed. Anna Polalikovski many29:3629 minutes, 36 secondsyears ago heroic journalist killed Yamsoft killed murdered Nvali murdered in prison by Novachuk29:4229 minutes, 42 secondsuh you know or sorry uh attempted to kill Scrapala defector with Novichok Nalli they attempted to kill Novachuk again once he survived and then they29:5129 minutes, 51 secondskilled him in prison they found out with a rare poison from apparently a tree frog Germans Brits others have found out a couple months ago reported on that’s29:5929 minutes, 59 secondsgovernment level that’s state security level poisoning They can trace those.

Yeah. They wanted to sign their work.30:0630 minutes, 6 secondsYes. So, unfortunately, I believe much like Germany before the end of World War II, and the Germans became a great ally to the United States, I believe they still are today. They’re a great ally30:1530 minutes, 15 secondswithin NATO. I wish their chancellor, by the way, had not said what he said recently. I I think that was a mistake on his part. I just want to say um uh30:2230 minutes, 22 secondsthere’s ways to constructively contribute to feedback even when our country’s at war. I don’t believe what he said recently was, but I I believe that Germany is a great ally United30:3030 minutes, 30 secondsStates. I’m pointing out that still the vast majority of the bur German population all the way to the end of World War II was solidly behind that30:3830 minutes, 38 secondsNazi regime.

Today in Russia, what chance do they have to understand democracy or to really understand the Ukraine war when they get fed non-stop30:4630 minutes, 46 secondspropaganda every single hour of the day on Russian news, being told that the United States started this war, NATO is fighting in Ukraine against Russia? This30:5430 minutes, 54 secondsis a fight for our survival against uh Nazi uh Ukraine, which of course is a joke since Zilinsky himself is Jewish31:0131 minutes, 1 secondand had members of his family died the Holocaust. So that’s a long answer to a short question. His approval ratings are very high because there is no opposition allowed in Russia. None whatsoever.31:1131 minutes, 11 secondsAnd it sounds like I mean one, it’s as totalitar it is to as totalitarian as the Nazis ever were.31:1831 minutes, 18 secondsMaybe not as organized, but that’s the story of the Russians versus the Germans.

Uh, nobody out organizes Germans generally, but they’ve you said that area. I didn’t say that.31:2631 minutes, 26 secondsYou said that. So, well, German, you know, uh, as far as stereotypes go, that’s a pretty good31:3331 minutes, 33 secondsone. Um, um, they learned a few tricks over the decades. They they know how to keep their people31:4031 minutes, 40 secondsin line. And this is, I think, something that that the average person doesn’t understand about Russian intelligence, that the first victims of Russian31:4831 minutes, 48 secondsintelligence are always Russians. Very [snorts] good point. I make that point in the book as you know Eric. You know I wrote a column piece by the way. I write a column about every two or three weeks31:5631 minutes, 56 secondsfor the cipher brief.

Um it’s a great platform. Check out my column in January. I wrote a column for your listeners and viewers called uh Russia32:0432 minutes, 4 secondsthe modern surveillance state. I make the argument that they’re right up there with China and North Korea for greatest surveillance state of all time right now. China’s in the running too. North32:1332 minutes, 13 secondsKorea is definitely up there just because of sheer control of their people. But yeah, Russia, the Russian security services today have so many more tools than the KGB or anyone did in32:2132 minutes, 21 secondsdecades past. But but um you probably have a couple more questions maybe.32:2532 minutes, 25 secondsYeah, got some got some good questions here.Chapter 8: Church and state relations32:2732 minutes, 27 secondsSo Rossworth asks Oleg Kugin stated that the Russian Orthodox Church was an organ of the state firmly under control of KGB32:3532 minutes, 35 secondsand the current Russian intelligence services.

Is that still true?32:3932 minutes, 39 secondsYeah, Kugan, by the way, for folks that don’t know, obviously good good good question from that viewer. Kugan was a a general of the KGB. Um, at one point he32:4832 minutes, 48 secondswas, I think, one of the youngest generals ever, the KGB. I think he now still lives in the UK as far as I know.32:5332 minutes, 53 secondsHe’s still alive in his in his senior year, elderly years. But, uh, great commentator on Russian intelligence. I don’t always agree with Kugan, but he33:0133 minutes, 1 secondsays a lot of things that are very smart. Uh, the KGB always very methodically used the Russian Orthodox Church, took advantage of them where33:0833 minutes, 8 secondsthey could.

By the way, the Zars too, prior to the Bolshevc revolution, the Zars were always embedded very smartly33:1533 minutes, 15 secondsabout how they used the Russian Orthodox Church to portray the um Romanovs as33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsbeing guided from God that the Zar was of course, you know, Russian people were encouraged by the church to call him papa. You know, he was the father of the33:3033 minutes, 30 secondspeople and of course until bloody Nicholas. Nicholas II was the disastrous Azar and the last Zar of course. But so the Russian Orthodox Church, sadly, I’m33:3833 minutes, 38 secondsnot in the business of criticizing religion. People can practice whatever religion they want. Uh I have members of my wife’s family were Russian Orthodox33:4533 minutes, 45 secondsat one time or another.

My wife’s half Russian in Ukrainian. The other half she’s Lithuanian. Um so profound respect for the church itself. But the fact is33:5333 minutes, 53 secondslike Kugan said, they have been used very tactically uh over the decades and over hundreds of years by the by whoever rules Russia. Today I do believe they34:0234 minutes, 2 secondsare embedded largely. Unfortunately, a lot of their leadership is embedded with Putin. They use the Russian Orthodox Church. They use its leadership very34:1034 minutes, 10 secondscarefully to help promulgate the idea that this is a just war by Russia against Ukraine. I don’t believe in any concept of a just war unless the country34:1734 minutes, 17 secondsis invaded uh like we were attacked on 9/11.

Russia wasn’t attacked by Ukraine.34:2334 minutes, 23 secondsThe Russian Orthodox Church has no business siding with the Russian government and and acting like this is a just and this is a patriotic and righteous war. But in fact, they’ve been34:3134 minutes, 31 secondsdoing just that. There’s been an awful lot of that. So yeah, there’s some there’s a lot of truth in what Kugan said.34:3634 minutes, 36 secondsSo what are some policies you’d like to see government take?34:4234 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. To deal with this [snorts] more seriously.34:4734 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. I think uh and then I appreciate your patience, Eric, and those of the viewers. You can tell my voice is kind of raspy. I’ve had a lot of book launch functions this week and appreciate all those that have supported the the book.Chapter 9: Countering modern warfare34:5734 minutes, 57 secondsI hope some of your listeners will check out the book.

But um so what do I advocate for in the book? You know, in my final chapters, by the way, those of you that do read it, I do some kind of35:0635 minutes, 6 secondswarming up initially talking about the structure and history of the intelligence services. We talked about that today, hopefully to wet your appetite. Chapter three is all about illegals. The middle of the book’s about35:1435 minutes, 14 secondsa lot of their tactics, surveillance, how the Russians do surveillance in and out of Russia. Uh I have a chapter called Sticks and Bricks. It talks about street trade craft.35:2435 minutes, 24 secondsThe latter chapters of the book though are what I view are some of the most important. Um, Eric, and I talk about active measures, which we touched on35:3035 minutes, 30 secondstoday, Russian information warfare.

Keep in mind that what they did in 2016, they did largely through uh the Russian35:3835 minutes, 38 secondsintelligence services, their officers themselves, and then proxies. They hire organized crime groups and hackers that they still use today. A lot of academics call them NSAs or non-state actors.35:4935 minutes, 49 secondsSure.35:4935 minutes, 49 secondsThat was 2016. Today, Eric, 10 years later, this is magnified 10,000 times over or more. the impact via cognitive35:5835 minutes, 58 secondswarfare. So now the Russians can use AI and they’re very very good at AI and their hackers are very good at it. Now what it took them before an officer was36:0636 minutes, 6 secondstold that for instance the internet research agency in St.

Petersburg’s famous social media troll farm sure real place really existed.36:1636 minutes, 16 secondsMhm. They’re reporting on his extensive.36:1736 minutes, 17 secondsI detail in my book. You know, they would have officers show up there and they were given a quote. Hey, we want you to do 200 200 social media36:2636 minutes, 26 secondscommentaries today on Facebook and get in touch with your hackers that work for us. Make sure that each of them gets given two or 300. They have to do two.36:3336 minutes, 33 secondsBy the way, if they don’t, we’ll arrest them because they’re cyber criminals.36:3636 minutes, 36 secondsThat’s how they extort them to work for them. So, what’s the importance today?36:4036 minutes, 40 secondsWhat do we need to focus on today?

The first thing I ask about the American people is understand that that’s happening out there and not just from36:4736 minutes, 47 secondsRussia. That’s happening from China. And the goal is to destroy our society.36:5336 minutes, 53 secondsOkay? This is a this is big game hunting for them. Okay? This is an existential fight for Russia and China both. It’s for them to decide. They want this37:0137 minutes, 1 secondcentury to be called the Russian century or the Chinese century. By the way, in terms of a much more uh dramatic uh uh37:0937 minutes, 9 secondspotential impact, all societal, economic, military, and otherwise, China is the greater threat. I focus on Russia. I do my part as a Russia expert.37:1637 minutes, 16 secondsChina, Chinese military is the much greater threat, of course, but they’re both fundamentally an existential threat right now to democracies because of what they’re doing in cognitive warfare.

So,37:2437 minutes, 24 secondsI ask I speak to university groups sometimes, Eric, and I’ll share my advice for your listeners and viewers.37:3037 minutes, 30 secondsDon’t be emotional when you read news that gets you really upset. If somebody says, “Hey, they’re taking away your guns in City X.” Before you get all37:3737 minutes, 37 secondsexcited, see if it’s really news or if it’s the Russians or Chinese faking that news or the flip side of it, saying not37:4437 minutes, 44 secondstaking guns, but saying, “Hey, guns should be given to kids all over America.” That’s also the type of thing that they’re doing to stir up stir up37:5237 minutes, 52 secondsAmericans. Whichever side you are on the debate, they pick the most existential issues to come out of America.

the the the the issues that Americans are most38:0038 minutesemotional about, excuse me, most emotional that they want Americans to be fighting about in our democracy. And then the second question is before you38:0638 minutes, 6 secondsget emotional, also ask yourself, is it even a real person or organization?38:1138 minutes, 11 secondsThere was a famous incident. I wish it had gotten more coverage. This really happened about it last year and I think it was Oklahoma, one of the Midwest38:1838 minutes, 18 secondsstates. Flash mob showed up. People are fighting and arguing with each other. I forget what the issue. I think it might have been guns rights. Cops showed up say, “Hey, what the hell’s going on38:2638 minutes, 26 secondshere?

Everybody settled down. Hundreds of people are shouting, screaming at each other, flash mob protests, and the cops try to figure out, “Hey, who’s in charge?” They asked both sides, “Hey,38:3538 minutes, 35 secondswho’s in charge on your side?” Nobody knows. Who’s in charge on your side? We don’t know. We just showed up cuz we told I was told they’re taking away my guns. The other side told I was told38:4238 minutes, 42 secondsthat they’re going to try to give out guns for free and they’re going to let kids take. Do you know what they found out? What the FBI looked into or whatever federal agencies were involved38:5038 minutes, 50 secondstoo? It wasn’t a real thing. There was actually no real leaders on either side.38:5538 minutes, 55 secondsIt looks like it was our adversaries getting people to show up and go shout at each other.

And they would love if Americans got violent with each other.39:0239 minutes, 2 secondsNow more than ever, Eric, we need to understand the foreign threats who’s trying to do this to us from abroad so that we can stay more united as Americans and with our allies to counter39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsthe threat. So I’m I’m about team America. Whatever differences we have, we can sort them out as a democratic society. That’s not naive. As we39:1839 minutes, 18 secondscelebrate 250 years of our democracy, it’s worked. By the way, we’re the envy of the world for that in every sense that our democracy continues to work.39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsWe’re the envy of Russia in terms of our alliances with NATO.

Like the king said this week on his visit, let’s not forget or reject 80 years of history of NATO.39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsSo, those are the things I believe in, Eric. I appreciate you giving me a chance to talk about it with you. Well, this is a great country and it is worth39:4239 minutes, 42 secondsfighting for and thank you for your service and thank you for your new uh your new book, Tradecraftraft Tactics39:4939 minutes, 49 secondsand Dirty Tricks: Russian Intelligence and Putin’s Secret War. Not only should you buy two copies, you should read them39:5839 minutes, 58 secondseach. So, well, thank thank you, Eric. It’s a bestseller right now on Russian politics list on uh one of the categories.

It’s it’s genres. It’s a bestseller on40:0640 minutes, 6 secondsAmazon. Please check out why. Please check out all the endorsements from senior members of the intelligence community. I’m honored to have them as a team supporting me. Uh it’s available on40:1440 minutes, 14 secondsAmazon, Barnes & Noble, all the major sites in bookstores. You can go order it at your favorite bookstore. Support independent bookstores out there, too.40:2040 minutes, 20 secondsThey’re a great part of society. Eric, thank you so much for the chance to come on and talk about the things I love and I’m passionate about. I appreciate it.40:2640 minutes, 26 secondsThank you so much. I could keep you here another five hours.

All right. Thank you. And thank you out there for watching.40:3240 minutes, 32 secondsEric Garland, game Theory Today. We’ll see you again.Sync to video time